#63 - Autism, Anxiety, and Sleep with Lindsey Clark

***For transcript of this episode, scroll down!

🌙 Struggling with bedtime? Dive into the world of restful nights with Lindsey Clark, Autism & Anxiety Sleep Coach! Learn expert tips to help your sensational child snooze more peacefully and through the whole night. 😴

Join us as we chat about:

• Lindsey's journey into autism & anxiety sleep specialization
• Differentiating between autism and anxiety sleep issues
• Tips for soothing sleep routines for children
• Building independence in sleep
• Addressing wake-ups and transitions during the night

🎙️ Tune in now for some much-needed Zzz's! 😊

Want to connect more with Lindsey?

Don't forget to grab her FREE autism sleep guide:  www.peacefulsleepsecrets.com/free_autism_sleep_guide

Or, find her at:

Episode Transcript: 

Sam: Sleep is one of our most basic needs,

and when our kid isn't sleeping,

not only are they impacted, but we are too.

As a new mom when this episode launches, you probably know

that I am in the midst of living with very little sleep

as we navigate newborn life.

So I am in the thick of it.

But here's the thing, sensational kids often struggle

with this well into their later years.

They may have trouble falling asleep, needing a ton

of support or staying asleep through the night,

and this turns into a tough spiral because they're tired

and exhausted during the day leading to more sensory

and emotional challenges.

So when Lindsay from Peaceful Sleep Secrets reached out

to me last year about a collaboration,

I just knew I needed to have her on the podcast.

Lindsay is an autism

and anxiety sleep coach,

which is something I had never seen before.

Here's what you need to know about Lindsey.

Lindsey Clark is the founder

of Peaceful Sleep Secrets based in Hampshire or England.

She has over 20 years experience working

with babies and younger children.

It was after she realized the lack of support available

for parents of autistic children

and her eldest child on the pathway to diagnosis

that she made the decision to train as an autism

and anxiety sleep specialist.

Her expert knowledge

and firsthand experience means she's able

to support families using gentle bespoke approaches so

that autistic children get lasting long quality sleep.

She has successfully helped improve sleep for hundreds

of families worldwide through her one-to-one packages group

support programs, courses and workshops.

Lindsay also trains other sleep consultants

and professionals to become certified

autism sleep specialists.

Her work has been published in several international

magazines including Autism I, autism Parenting Magazine

and Autism Advocate Parenting Magazine.

And she regularly works with autism charities

and I am absolutely obsessed

with her neurodiversity affirming approach.

As you'll see in this episode,

she puts such an emphasis on supporting the needs

of each individual child.

If your sensational child struggles with sleep,

this is not an episode you wanna miss.

I know you and your little are desperate

for a good night's sleep, and don't you worry,

I've got all the notes over on my website for you.

So if you're busy on the go

and wanna go back later for reminders, you'll find that at

www.drsamgoldman.com/blog.

Let's get to it.

Sam: Hey Lindsay, I'm so excited to have you here today.

I know so many of our parents have big,

big questions surrounding sleep,

so this is gonna be such a good podcast.

Lindsey: Yeah, I'm so excited to be here.

Like I can't wait to give the parents, you know,

as much support as possible.

Hopefully lots of tips

and things today that are gonna get their

children sleeping a lot better

Tips.

Sam: I know everybody

is excited to hear those, but

before we jump right in,

can you tell us a little bit about you and who you are?

Lindsey: Yeah, sure. So my name's Lindsey Clark.

I'm an autism and anxiety sleep specialist

and I'm, my background is in education,

so I used to be a teacher.

I taught, uh, kind of primary age children

for about 20 years, uh, before I went into sleep consulting.

And I'm also a mom of two, so

I've got two little ones of my own.

They're currently six and almost four.

Um, my partner is actually neurodivergent,

my daughter is currently being assessed.

Um, she's the, the eldest of the two, so she's six.

Um, it takes a long time here in the UK

to, to get a diagnosis.

So we are going through that process at the moment with her.

So that's kind of a bit about my background really.

Sam: Oh man. So you're going

through the whole whole process right now.

How long did it take you to kind

of get into all of that over there?

Lindsey: So we had, um, kind of

suspicion she showed some traits, you know, as a toddler,

um, that we thought, you know, may, maybe she's autistic,

but it wasn't really, you know, nursery

and preschool never brought anything up.

It wasn't until she started school and it was the social

and communication aspect

and like emotionally, uh, she is not where her peers are.

So that was quite evident as soon as she started school.

She's one of the oldest in the year,

so she was sort of almost five.

Um, and yeah, they, they pretty much said straight away,

we feel like there is some issues here

and put some support in place,

but actually we want to get some further advice.

So they got specialist teachers in to observe her

and they agreed and then we've been put through the process,

but it's kind of, we were told it, it it's,

it's about a year to two years.

We are, we are nearly a year in, so, um,

Wow. It takes

To get, that's just to get the like in-person assessment.

So we're, we've done like the,

they you have online ones first, so we've done those.

We're waiting for the, the in-person ones basically.

Sam: That is a long process here.

If we wait like six weeks, I feel like we're, we're kind

of like, oh, six weeks feels so long.

Lindsey: Really? Oh no, this, yeah, it can take like two

to three years as well here.

Like, yeah.

Sam: Wow.

And so why sleep?

Is sleep something

that you guys were experiencing at home sleep challenges?

How did you go from being a primary school teacher

over to sleep?

Lindsey: Yeah, very much so.

I, my children were atrocious sleepers as babies as in

they would not be put down

and like as newborns, that that is normal.

It's normal for a baby to want to be close to you.

But there was, um, even as they got a bit older,

they weren't sleeping for any more than like 10, anything

between 10 minutes and an hour maybe.

And we weren't getting any sleep at all.

And so I got help with support with my own children, um,

and it just transformed everything

and it obviously it made me become more interested in the

area, um,

after having my son, like teaching

is not the most flexible career.

Like, you know, my, my daughter was gonna be starting school

in a couple of years time.

Um, there's just, it's, it's long.

It's, it's not always what people think.

It's quite long days. You have work to do in the evening,

work to do on, on your days off as well.

Um, so I always knew I wanted to do something more flexible.

So after having my son, I thought I'm gonna retrain,

it was lockdown and I thought I'm gonna retrain do something

different and that's when I went into sleep, you know,

I'd already experienced myself what a difference it,

it makes and it really did transform my experiences,

you know, as a mother having better sleep, um,

and for my children as well.

So that's how I became more interested in that area really.

Sam: I think sleep is like one of our absolute most basic needs

and when that's disrupted, I mean both for kids

and for us, it's really hard to go through

through the day feeling good.

Lindsey: Yeah, I think it makes everything else

that's already like a challenge.

It's 10 times harder when you have not had sleep.

If you can get sleep,

it just makes everything else feel a bit easier doesn't it?

Particularly if you have got, you know, a child

that's got other challenges as well.

Like as a parent, I know

that even now if my sleep is disrupted,

like my little boy had chicken pox the other week

and we had a week of disrupted sleep.

I just am more irritable. You just haven't got the patience.

And same for them as well.

Like I can tell when they've had a bad night's sleep, so,

and I think people forget you are constantly told

as a parent, like, oh, we expect no sleep.

And it's kind of a bit of a joke, isn't it?

But actually it makes it seem like it's not a necessity

when actually it is, it's not a luxury to want some sleep.

Um, yeah, it's so important

and I, I know everyone has different tolerance levels too,

but my tolerance is probably quite low and I need sleep.

But, um, I definitely, it's so important I think

Especially when we're talking about kids who

have sensory challenges when they already are

not getting sleep, that gives their sensory system less room

to tolerate other things.

Sam: Oh yeah, yeah, a hundred percent.

Lindsey: Like sleep will, will, you know, heighten those sensory

sensitivities and it can make behavior more challenging

as well because when you are more irritable, yeah,

you are less patient aren't you.

Um, and it's the same, same for children.

So it can, it can enhance those, those challenges, um,

any child faces if they're not

getting the rest that they need.

Sam: Mm-Hmm. And that's actually something that interested me

so much when you had first reached out

to connect was I was like, ooh, autism and anxiety.

I hadn't really seen anybody

focusing specifically on those areas when it came to sleep.

So can you tell us a little bit about what makes

that area different versus, you know,

why they might have different challenges sleeping versus

somebody without those diagnoses?

Lindsey: Yeah, of course. I mean the reasons for issues

in sleep are often different when a child is neurodivergent,

you know, in neurotypical children it's often

that they just dunno how to fall asleep independently

or reliant on a parent to do something.

Um, or the sleep hygiene isn't quite there

in neurodivergent children, it, the issues are often caused

by something different.

It can be to do with, um, the way the brain is wired.

It can affect the circadian rhythm that, uh,

autistic children are known to produce lower levels in

melatonin, for example.

So that means that they find it harder

to fall asleep and stay asleep.

Um, so when you look at like generic kind of sleep training

and what their advice is generally out there,

like if you were just to Google, you know, I want my child

to sleep better or help my child sleep better,

you're gonna get those generic techniques, um, and methods

and things that's not going to work

with a neurodivergent child

because the root cause is different

and it's not usually just

because they can't fall asleep alone.

There's normally a deeper issue than that.

Like I said, the melatonin can play a part, obviously

that's something that, um, you know,

melatonin is produced naturally in the body

so when the levels are lower, it just is going to be harder

for them to fall asleep, like I said,

and often stay asleep as well.

Um, the circadian rhythm as well, which I already mentioned,

is often not programmed in the same way or,

or like at the typical way we'd expect,

which means the body clock can be like outta sync, which is

where you'll often get, um, really late nights

and then they want to sleep in in the morning.

My own daughter does that.

Um, and or,

or like an awake period in the night,

like they're wide awake, like

they should be in a different time zone.

Um, so those things require specific different intervention

than perhaps a, you know, a neurotypical child might need.

And obviously the, the two things overlap there, you know,

there are elements, elements

that I would use from my toolkit.

We, you know, know with with neurotypical children,

neurodivergent children,

but actually it's a lot of a,

a deeper issue, if that makes sense.

Sam: Yeah, definitely. I have seen

so many autistic children struggle so much like you said

with that falling asleep, that staying asleep,

that waking up in the middle of the night

and they are wired and ready to go.

Lindsey: Yeah. Yeah. And they're,

they're the most typical issues that I see.

Really late bedtimes, frequent waking

or long periods of awake time

or um, children that wake up super early in the morning.

I'm not just talking five o'clock, I'm talking 2, 3, 4 am

and not going back to sleep the day starts then that's

so hard for families.

Um, but it is common in autism

and in neurodivergence so it's,

if you know the parents are listening, you're not alone.

It is common. It's nothing. You've done nothing at all.

Sam: Well, let's dive in right there. Tell us more.

What can you do

Yeah, with those When it starts those late nights?

Lindsey: Yeah, I mean I've got three

of my main tips here I thought I'd share today.

One of them is to look at the se the sensory issues

and sensory sensitivities.

Look at your bedtime routine

and think about, you know, if you, you know,

your child is particularly sensitive

to something like teeth brushing, hair brushing,

like obviously we need, we need to do those activities,

but doing them or those tasks I should say.

But doing them not so they're not right before bedtime.

Rearranging your bedtime routine so

that those things are maybe when they getting from school

or getting from nursery, it's not ideal

but it's gonna be better for them than, than not doing it

or better for them than doing it really close to bedtime.

Something as simple as that.

If your child has a sensitivity

to it can add hours onto bedtime.

I've seen it happen where just a teeth brush

before bedtime has added two hours

'cause the child is so kind of triggered by it.

Um, the other thing is the environment as well.

You know, often we rooms are very cluttered

or we have night lights

or light projectors, things like that.

Like you really need to take each individual child's

sensitivities into account when looking

at their bedroom as well.

Like removing clutter, removing toys if need be.

Um, yeah, thinking about the lighting, is there any smells

that's annoying them, like the fabric

that they've got on their bed.

So all those sensory things are,

are definitely things we need to look at

and really pick apart.

Like it can seem like a small thing

but it can have a big impact.

So that's kind of one of my tips. Is that all making sense?

Sam: Oh, I love that. 'cause from an OT perspective,

we're always talking, we call it a, the arousal system in OT

and any of those things that might be triggering it is,

it is alerting, right?

Like our body is on high alert now, like we are like, oh no,

this brushing my teeth that doesn't feel good

and you're, you're amped up.

So yeah, it's hard to go to sleep after that. Yeah, so I love that like tuning into what

your child like your child's triggers are

and maybe just shifting it a couple hours earlier,

that makes so much sense.

Lindsey: Yeah, exactly. Sometimes those little tweaks are actually

the thing that can make the biggest difference.

If you fake a few little tweaks

and they all help, then that can help with the bedtime.

Um, and the other, like my second tip was looking at anxiety

as well, you've just kind of touched on that anyway,

like if their system is alerted then that triggers anxiety.

If a child is anxious,

if anybody is anxious about something,

you are not going to be able to sleep.

I know that if I'm worried about

something I can't get to sleep.

Your brain is, is worrying, isn't it?

And children can't always communicate what that is.

They don't even know themselves sometimes the thing

that's triggered them or made them anxious.

But you know, not eight out of 10 children

that are neuro uh, neurodivergent, sorry, usually suffer

with anxiety as well.

Um, even if it's not clear what is necessarily.

So it really is about, you know, digging deep again,

finding out what is causing that anxiety.

It could be something that happened much earlier in the day,

um, or things that have mounted up during the day,

um, not just at bedtime.

Like literally need to look at the, the kind

of seven till seven, um,

or the seven in the morning till seven in the evening

as well, not just seven till seven at night.

Um, to to find out what's happening,

what's making them anxious,

and then trying to kind of put things in place to lower

that anxiety and to kind of counterbalance it so that they,

uh, the anxiety is brought down

otherwise it's gonna be its highest at bedtime

and then there's gonna be no switching off

or they'll switch off at bedtime because they're exhausted

and then those anxieties when they rouse in the night come

to the surface and then you've got a very awake alert child.

Um, so that can happen too.

Sam: Do you have any favorite things that you turn to usually

for helping calm them back down

or helping relieve some of that before bed?

Lindsey: I mean it depends on the age

of the child and the understanding.

Obviously every child I work with is completely different.

Often things like social stories

and teaching them techniques

with older children is quite good.

Um, doing things like introducing anything

that helps them regulate really.

Um, and this was gonna be my third tip.

Sometimes we have to kind of ditch what you are told about

what like the perfect bedtime routine looks

like for some children.

The only thing that regulates them,

and this is just an example, is having a bit of screen time,

having a bit of, you know,

watching the iPad or something like that.

Sometimes 10 minutes on an iPad brings the anxiety down,

then I would suggest you do include that maybe not as part

of the bedtime routine, but like early evening

letting them have that bit of time.

You know, we're always told avoid

screens, avoid screens, aren't we?

And and yes, screens aren't great for sleep,

but actually just having that bit of regulation time

to bring down anxiety for some children will help them.

Or if if it's that your child loves jumping on the

trampoline and that really helps them regulate, you know,

anything that's going to counterbalance

that anxiety is going to help.

So I would structure that in

before, you know, when, when they get in from if they're at

childcare or you know, like I said, our afternoon time.

Sam: I actually love that, especially

because the autistic community has kind of come out recently

and said like, screen time can be helpful for us.

And I personally feel that too for me when it comes

to sleep, if I don't have like just 30 minutes of couch time

with my husband to sit

and watch TV when I go to bed, I am amped up.

I don't know why. Yeah.

But it's the one time my brain really turns off. Right.

Lindsey: Yeah, I know. And if you think about it, that's

what we generally do to relax, isn't it?

I know of an evening I wanna put my feet up,

watch some Netflix or whatever

and you know, relax to something that I enjoy

and I think, you know, sometimes withholding

that from a child can make them more anxious as well.

So it, it does need to be obviously limited

and monitored and things like that.

But I know that my daughter, when she gets in from school,

we don't do any afterschool clubs.

She is done like she doesn't want to do

and she wouldn't cope with doing anything else

or even a longer day doing anything.

She gets in, you know, watches a bit of bit of tv, we do,

we do some games and things

and she, she needs that time to wind down.

Um, if, yeah, if we do different things or we go somewhere

or do something, it can, it can make her much later to bed.

So yeah, it's, it's, I wouldn't follow like,

like I said, the perfect bed to bedtime routine, that kind

of advice that you are always told.

Don't worry about breaking it if it's right for your child.

Sam: I love that. It is so important

to look at each specific kid

and what their personal needs are

because every single kid is really so different.

Lindsey: Yeah. Yeah.

Sam: So we did kind

of touch on kids waking up in the middle of the night.

And what do you kind of recommend when

that's happening a lot for somebody,

what are some of those strategies?

Is it more of what we just talked about,

like the things setting up earlier in the day

or are there things you could do in the moment?

Lindsey: Yeah, I mean some of those things will definitely help

me making sure those sensory needs are met.

Like again, it, it's looking at the whole day as a whole

and sometimes children need a lot of,

or some children need a lot of sensory breaks.

Like one of the biggest things I see that's, that

has an impact on sleep is them not having enough like

big movement activities.

So adding more of that in can really help, um, often

as well the child's behavior during the night

can give us a clue as to what they're needing more of.

So often I will work with children

who are stimming a lot in the night or jumping around

or shouting, things like that.

And obviously no one in the house can

sleep when that's going on.

Um, so actually sometimes that gives us a clue as to

what they need more of in the day

and just adding in like a few five minute breaks

where they can have, you know, like it's time

to jump on the trampoline or run around

or whatever, whatever it may be, swing it, you know,

it can really help with the sleep at nighttime.

So that, that's a common one. I see.

Um, giving children, like older children, the,

those independent skills like I mentioned earlier,

like things like the breathing act activities so that they,

they have strategies themselves to get back

to sleep often helps too.

Um, one thing

that I don't usually suggest is doing like

rewards and things like that.

Like often people want to give rewards,

but sometimes the pressure of a reward makes it worse.

Like the anxiety of thinking, am I gonna get it?

Am I gonna not, they become very focused on that

and then they can't sleep as well.

So, um, I tend to steer away from uh,

rewards when it is neurodivergent children.

Um, but certainly looking at look all those things,

the anxiety, the sensory needs, looking at behavior.

Um, sometimes when it is anxiety you can end,

they can end up, it can up

but becoming a habit like, you know, they wake nervous,

want a parent in the room, they don't,

they can't quite say why.

So again, it's just about making gentle changes

and encouraging that independence.

But actually I, I wouldn't ever suggest doing anything like

drastic leaving them just telling 'em to go back

to bed if they're upset and anxious,

they're gonna need those strategies.

Sam: Yeah, it definitely reminds me too of for like some

of the adult tips they say when you wake up in the middle

of the night not to sit there

and just like think about going back to bed, right.

The yeah. Pressure of that.

So I could understand how the pressure of a reward

or something like that might be really challenging.

It would get them more awake and worried.

Lindsey: Yeah. Or it can end up causing,

if they don't get it can end up causing like more anxiety,

which makes it worse.

So that's why I tend to kind of stay away,

stay away from those really.

Sam: Yeah. So something else that a lot

of my parents talk about is having

to be physically in the room as their child falls asleep.

And I definitely have my OT perspective on this,

but I'm excited to hear kind of your perspective on it.

A lot of times they need to be like physically sitting there

holding them, patting them

and it it can go on for hours to help them fall asleep.

Any tips with improving kind

of independence and going to sleep?

Lindsey: Yeah, I mean it really depends on why the child needs

the parent there as well.

Like, you do have to think about that.

Usually it is linked to some kind of anxiety, some kind

of like separation or something that's happened

during the day that has caused them that anxiety.

And again, their strategies will depend on the child

and their age and their understanding too.

Um, there are lots of like simple things you can do

to improve independence.

Using visual aids is one of those that can,

and there are lots of different bedtime visual aids

that you can get, but that will help promote independence

because your child can be part of forming those visual aids

and putting them together and like designing a bedtime

routine and things like that.

Doing role play of what you're expecting so that they know

what to expect at bedtime

and making changes really gradually.

The the other thing with doing like the visual aids

and role play is neurodivergent children take longer

to process things, particularly if it is auditory.

So having the visual, having done it, having warning

of what's going to happen is going to help when you do try

and make any tweaks and changes.

And like I said, I would just make those changes very gently

and in small steps, nothing drastic

because that's probably gonna have a adverse effect.

Um, other things people can do are things like social

stories where the story is about the child

and what's gonna happen to them.

So it's much more personal.

Um, in often like things like encouraging attachment

to a toy or giving them like an item of a parent's.

I did work with a little boy once who was three

and we got a cushion made of mom's face and he like loved it

and then he started sleeping so much better.

He wasn't diagnosed, um, like autistic,

but he was very highly anxious

and um, just, just introducing that

just helped him sleep a bit better.

And eventually we were able to move.

My mom was on a mattress next to him all night actually.

Um, eventually we were able to move her out of the room.

Um, so there's some like simple things.

There are like other sort of tricks you can use.

There's, there's one called the ribbon trick.

I dunno if you've, have you heard of this?

Sam: No, no.

Lindsey: I'll, I'll explain it.

So with the ribbon trick, if you've got a child who wants

to be kind of attached or touched all the time or,

or you write there, what you can do is they want their

connection with you still.

And I think they feel like when you are going to leave,

obviously they, they can't see you anymore,

but they feel like the connection's kind

of broken, although we know it's not.

Um, and obviously bedtime is a goodbye, isn't it?

It's the longest time they're going to be away from you.

So that's why a lot of children get anxious about it.

They know they're not gonna see you till morning the longest

time they're gonna be away from you.

So with the ribbon trick, what you do is it's an idea

to say they still feel connected to you.

So you get a ribbon child, the child holds one end

and you hold the other end,

but first of all, right next to them.

So you start right next to their bed

and then gradually each night you move away

but still holding onto the ribbon so you're still connected

and obviously once the child is asleep

you need to remove it.

So there's no, no danger risk.

But um, eventually then obviously you can move out

of the room and say, I'm just outside the door,

hold onto the ribbon and then eventually you

can stop holding the ribbon.

So for some children that are highly anxious, that um,

technique works really well, um, in, you know,

supporting them just to be a bit more independent too.

It takes time but like anything,

every small step forward is still a step forward.

Um, and sometimes these things do take a bit of time,

but it's worth it in the end.

Sam: Oh, that's so sweet. I love that.

I love the connection there that it's still there.

They're learning, it's still there.

Even if you're a little bit farther

away, you're still there.

Lindsey: Yeah, exactly.

Sam: So something simple, but it,

it can work really well in the right circumstances.

So it does sound like everything you do

is super personalized.

What does it look like when somebody

does kind of book with you?

Is it, do you, are you there overnight with them?

Are you there for like the bedtime? How does it work?

Lindsey: No, I'm not. I think that would

probably throw the child off.

Having a stranger in the house at

bedtime probably make them worse.

Um, no, so what I do is basically when a family sign up

to work with me, I do like a thorough assessment of sleep.

Well first of all I talk to 'em on the phone.

I find out all about their child, what their kind

of triggers are, what their issues are, any sensitivities,

what the child likes.

So I get to, to know the child as much as I can,

um, through the parent.

And then they, they complete some assessments for me, um,

that tell me everything I need to know basically.

And then I do a personalized plan for each child.

So I do look at things like anxiety

and sensory sensitivities, environment,

what's happening at bedtime

and what sleep methods we kind of need to put in place

to maybe promote independence if the

child isn't independent.

Um, it's all based on the parents' goals as well, you know,

what, what they want to achieve.

Um, and then yeah, we have,

we have like a consultation over Zoom

where we talk it all through.

Um, we discuss what things we need to tweak or change

and what the family feel comfortable doing.

We're gonna do first, what we're gonna do next.

So it is very much a, I come up with a plan

but I do talk to parents

because ultimately they know their child best.

Um, and we talk, I talk them through

and kind of finalize it with them

and we discuss what we're gonna put in place

and what the next steps are and things.

And then I support them for usually between like two

and four weeks with implementing any changes.

We like check in, phone calls, messages, emails,

whatever the family feel most comfortable with really.

So the support is there as and when they need it.

Um, yeah, with their child

Pretty quick Track.

Yeah, I mean not all children are exactly where they want

to be, like the end of two weeks say.

But the, the thing is the parents have the tools

and the knowledge and we've made sure we've tweaked

everything so we know everything is on track.

Um, and they just need to continue doing it

or the consistency is the thing that's going

to get the results um, in the end.

So yeah, often children do start like sleeping through

and we see improvement in the two weeks

but um, realistically it can take a couple of months

for things to fully come together.

Sam: So I do wanna talk about this week's email

that you sent out because I

thought it was a really good one.

You kind of pointed out that there's no real

regulations when it comes, comes to kind

of the sleep industry

and you know, that's challenging

'cause when you're trying to fix somebody out to help you,

you wanna make sure they know what they're talking about.

Yeah. What do you recommend for parents?

Like what to look at, how to know, how

to know they're going in the right direction with somebody?

Lindsey: It is difficult

because the sleep industry isn't regulated, which is a shame

because someone like me, if it was regulated,

I'd be the first to be signing up

and getting that, you know, whatever is they brought out.

You know, I'd absolutely want to have that.

And it really is gonna be about

looking at the sleep consultant.

If you're thinking of working with somebody, checking

that their values align with yours

and your parenting style that you feel comfortable with

what their methods might be.

Like nobody's a a sleep consultant if you,

if you contact them and say, you know, what kind

of methods do you use, what you know,

and ask them those questions like, uh, you know, I want

to go down the gentler route

or I want things as quick as possible.

You know, you need to make sure that you're aligned in

what you know, in your thoughts about sleep and parenting.

So I would definitely go on to like their Instagram page,

make sure you've seen them talking something

so you can get a gist that you would, you know,

you would get on with them

and that you're a good fit to work with each other

because you know you are gonna have to be honest with them,

feel like you can speak to 'em, that they're gonna listen

to you because you do know your child best.

Um, so things like that are really important

and you know, you can always ask like,

who did you train with as well?

The, the, the thing is there are sleep courses

that are like one day courses that you can just do

and then you can call yourself a sleep consultant.

I didn't do that by the way.

Um, but yeah,

even just asking them like, who did you train with?

How did you get into this? What experience have you got?

Um, I I know

that I wouldn't be offended by being asked that.

Sam: Are there specific ones that you recommend people look out

for that's like, if somebody trained at this place,

you know, it's like a really kind

of research based really good.

Lindsey: I mean I work with a lot of different, I wouldn't like

to say because I work with a lot of different ones

and I wouldn't want to offend anyone

by not, uh, mentioning them.

'cause through my, through my autism role, I work with a lot

of the different, um, providers,

but obviously I haven't trained with them.

I've only trained with one myself, so it's tricky

for me to comment or afraid.

Sam: Okay. No, no, I just was wondering

'cause I, I don't know any of the regulations about sleep.

Well this was so helpful. We did talk about so much though.

So if there is one thing that

parents should leave today kind of thinking

or somewhere that you think would be a good place for them

to start, what would it be?

Lindsey: So

My like, top bit of advice would be some

of the things I've mentioned already.

Really, number one actually is just

because if you have a neurodivergent child

and they're not sleeping, it doesn't mean that you need

to accept sleepless nights.

Often when parents go

to healthcare professionals like doctors

or we, we have healthcare visitors here, they will

just give you the generic advice

and say autistic children don't sleep

or, um, you just need to put up with it.

Um, or they'll just suggest giving melatonin, which

isn't the long-term answer.

Um, and you don't need to just put up with it.

There are strategies

and there are things you can put in place to fix it.

Like your child will be able to sleep well.

It's just about working with their unique, unique needs.

I would definitely be focusing on like the sensory,

the anxiety and ditching that perfect bedtime routine

that we talked about and,

and reminding yourself that actually that

that small step forward, even a small change you make,

if it does something positive, then it's still

a step towards that big end goal and that's a good thing.

Sam: Oh, that was such an amazing answer. I love that.

So where can our audience find you?

Because I know they are gonna be dying to keep connecting.

Lindsey: Oh yeah, of course. And I'd love to have them.

So my Instagram page is Autism and Anxiety Sleep Coach.

It's got the all like underscores between the words.

Um, and on on my website I've got a specific section

for like autism and anxiety.

Um, my website is peaceful sleep secrets.com.

Um, there's also a free, a couple

of free eBooks you can download on there as well.

So if anyone wants to head over there,

you'll be able to see them.

Um, and obviously you can email

[email protected]

And I will link this all in the show notes

so everybody can go find that easily and connect with you.

That's great. Yeah, and you know, I'm always happy

to have a chat, so if anyone's ever got a question,

feel free to like DM me, email me, I will always get back

to you, um, or, you know, point you to a blog post

or, you know, my, my eBooks, things like that.

But I always do my best to help anyone that does message me.

Sam: Lindsay, thank you so much

for being here. This was so much fun.

Lindsey: Yeah, you too. Thank you for having me. It's been lovely.

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